Leah Cottham (00:05.281)
Hi everyone and welcome to this next episode of the Freedom of Work Podcast. So the Freedom of Work podcast is all about global distributed teams, and specifically the topic that we are delving into today is neurodiversity in global remote hiring. So we're really going to be looking at building those inclusive processes and reasonable adjustments across borders. And we are joined by Mark, who is doing exactly that. So Mark, if want to take the stage, say a little bit about yourself, who you are, and yeah, intro yourself to the get.

Thank you.

Mark (00:37.006)
Thank you, Lynn. So I'm Mark Thornton. I'm currently a TA Enablement and Change Manager at Matcha, which is a global RPO embedded recruitment function. I've spent the last 13 years within recruitment, going through agencies, going through a couple of different RPOs, working at large businesses like PayPal and Microsoft, and also startups and scale-ups.

Prior to that I had a very varied background. I was a kitchen designer. I sang on cruise ships. I was in the West End when was a child. I sold solar panels, photocopiers, worked for a damp proofing company. It varied, but recruitment is the thing that that has very much stuck. Regarding my neurodiversity journey, so I'm I'm autistic. I'm actually autistic, as is my son, diagnosed as well.

And it was really his journey of diagnosis that made me realise that we are identical and and ours as well. And it took me a bit of time to to get through that realisation and sort of work out where that mask had come from and what I was doing with that mask to then drop it and think, why not? Let let's be clear, let let's help people, let's use my own journey to to help improve places.

Leah Cottham (01:59.563)
Absolutely. I think that's such a wonderful story to be part of, especially with your son, and it also helps you both understand who you both are and how you can put this into your job. I think is such a a nice journey to be on. So absolutely love that and thanks for the intro, Mark. So let's get into it. So you mentioned those giants like PayPal and Microsoft. So what's actually like

Mark (02:15.029)
No one.

Leah Cottham (02:23.196)
leading embedded remote teams in these enterprise giants and across so many countries and cultures.

Mark (02:32.021)
Honestly, I would say with companies, it it doesn't really matter about the size. The size is very much a red herring. You could be leading one person in a small startup across the world, you could lead a team of two, you could leave a team of 30. Ultimately, it's the same regardless of size. With the embedded piece, I think it's quite useful because you're living in two worlds, which for me, living autistic with a with a mask on for so many years.

Been living this two worlds, so for me was quite an easy understanding. But I think one of the the biggest pieces to focus on there is leading remote teams and leading diverse teams because when you're remote, you are not having these small conversations across computers, you're not going out for a break, you're not going out for lunch together as much. So it's actually the remote piece that is the the real focus there because

Leah Cottham (03:04.808)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (03:30.368)
Mm.

Mark (03:32.232)
you don't have those micro interactions, so you have to be consciously getting to know people, consciously working out how to bring that social and that culture aspect in. And it's actually quite fun to bring that piece in.

Leah Cottham (03:46.933)
Yeah, absolutely. It's it's one of them, isn't it? You completely forget how relationships can be so easily formed in that face to face environment and being able to be in the the talent team and making sure that people are consciously connecting with each other and finding out ways of working. We have a really great thing called donut chats and it's on our our slide. Yeah. And you randomly get selected with someone in a different department and a different country and

Mark (03:53.467)
Mm-hmm.

Mark (04:07.172)
Hmm, these are for home. Yeah.

Leah Cottham (04:15.412)
You learn all about their culture. I always ask what their favourite food is, things like that. And even though it's just a little side thing that happens in the background, every so often you get selected to speak to somebody you'd you'd never speak to before. I think little things like this are really nice to add into the workflow of being able to work remotely with teams across the globe.

Mark (04:28.071)
Yeah.

Mark (04:37.286)
Yeah, we do a similar thing in that show we have coffee chats, which again is we do it voluntary because we don't want to enforce fun with people because there's a a very fine balance and people are busy. But a lot of people do sign up to these kind of things. We also do breakout sessions in our sort of all hand calls or our What's Quicking calls because it puts different people together and there's usually a subject to to to discuss and you you get to know about people in a different way and probably a better way than you would if they're in person.

Leah Cottham (04:44.509)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (05:06.814)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I really like that. Yeah. It's it just shows how many different ways there are out there and to where remotely is this is the way to look at it. So as you are looking globally and remotely, is there anything that specifically changes when you are man managing up to forty direct reports, let's say, spread across different time zones and different labour markets?

Mark (05:12.796)
Yeah.

Mark (05:30.565)
It's being cognizant of people's differences and cultural differences. So, for example, again, you're not overhearing the conversations, so you're having to get to know these people deeply. You're having to bring these people together and make sure they do come together. It's focusing on outcomes rather than the green tick of if they're online on on Teams or on Slack or or any other platform.

Leah Cottham (05:42.792)
Yeah.

Mark (05:59.16)
it becomes very much outcome focused rather than just those small little bits of the the little niggles, the little they've they don't look like they're online. Well they might be online, do you know? You can't micromanage them. You have to have trust and you have to have faith within these people. On the cultural side it's even more interesting because you you have to understand labor laws, you have to understand the notice periods, you have to understand all of this and make sure your team will understand it. And if they're in a different country and managing

to another country to making sure everyone has that that knowledge available to them. Like the US notice period is very different to the German notice period, for example. And you have things like the Workers' Council in Germany and you know th there's loads of different aspects that you have to be aware of. And it's coming prepared. It's doing your deep research beforehand because you can't necessarily rely on a team to know everything. And you shouldn't have to. You are leading them. You're helping them with information.

So you have to get involved yourself as well. You have to make sure you know everything so that you can keep people on the straight scenario whenever they need it.

Leah Cottham (07:04.146)
Yeah, absolutely. I think going back to that first word of trust, I think if you are going to be a globally remote team, it has to be at the core of what you start your businesses, especially as stakeholders, CEOs, everybody at the top of that. They need to be able to yeah, trust is gonna be the core of that because as you say, like people if it's everybody's at home, you have to make sure that you

Mark (07:08.416)
Mm.

Leah Cottham (07:29.438)
trust them but also they trust you as well and also I feel like people want to work much harder to show that they are trustworthy and it kinda comes in that two way solution really and yeah as you said with that the labour laws like it there's so much out there and if you r really do have to pay attention I guess that's why remote first so yeah shout out but yeah

Mark (07:52.258)
Yeah. It it's it's trust. It is trust, it's outcomes, it's data. I mean data is incredibly important. As I said, the green tick doesn't show anything. Someone can mark themselves away because they're trying to focus on doing administration. You can't focus on a green tick. But it is the data showing that they they are putting the work in that that really does show that. And you have to trust the data because you have to trust the people.

Leah Cottham (07:58.909)
Absolutely.

Leah Cottham (08:05.28)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (08:16.55)
Yeah, I think that's what it all comes down to. What is actually what projects have they worked on? Have they succeeded in what they wanted in every queue? And have they been online for eight to ten hours a day? Maybe not, but that's because they know specifically how to work. They might work really hard in the mornings. Maybe they've got the afternoons off, but they might go back into work in the evenings. You never know how people work. And I think if the company allows that to happen.

it really makes a massive shift in people being able to tailor their days to suit their work environments. So it's definitely

Mark (08:51.498)
also their their personal environment, that's a very much reasonable adjustment kind of piece as well. That some people do not perform wells at certain certain times of the day. I I am not a morning person, which is great when I'm working with American teams because I can be online later and I can start earlier. I have a family, I have three children, so having that flexibility to have an hour off in the day to go and do a school run and put it on the other end of the day, or you know, that kind of thing, it

Leah Cottham (09:04.382)
Yeah.

Mark (09:18.004)
it's flexibility, but it again it's the trust that are doing it. And the reasonable adjustments case for neurodiversity, for example, you you have people who need to take breaks. They might get overwhelmed, but then there might be a period of hyper focus where you can't reach them because they are laser focused on on one particular thing and they might work till midnight. It's it's being like very aware of when they're working to make sure that they're not overworking because that becomes a a massive problem. but it's it it's just

It's knowing your people.

Leah Cottham (09:48.629)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what sits at the core, especially when it is a remote global team. So thank you so much for sharing that. I think it's right really great to find out what that looks like on the operational side, building so much trust into that, finding out how people work, specifically project tools, how that looks like a success and really managing that throughout every country and culture. But I guess as you are speaking about your neurodiversity side of things, let's get into this personal story about the autistic recruiter.

I think it's so interesting to hear it from somebody who is really in that and knows it from the inside out really. So what actually got you first talking openly? I know you've mentioned your son, maybe kind of helped to kick things off, but is there anything that helped push that then to being in recruits in the recruitment side and having the the autistic side kind of merging into one, really?

Mark (10:43.263)
So I mean I will take it back to my son because he was a massive inspiration for me for all of it. It was his journey that made me think about going on mine. So initially he went through it first, I saw the similarities, and I then looked at it more, I looked around the world, I researched it, and I could see the the inequalities and the struggles and and that kind of area. And I thought, you know what, if if I can go through it and

got very swift and easy diagnosis all on the NHF. if I could go through that and then I can I can show him that you can have a career, you can have a family, you can like really assert yourself in in a in an industry, you can own your house, own a car, you know you can do exactly everything that anyone can do. There is just maybe different routes, different challenges and different ways to adjust yourself to be able to be successful. So

When I got my diagnosis, after about a year, year and a half of turning into a completely different person because I was becoming to terms with who I was and and really building a different mask, the one that I'd I'd lost through COVID from being completely blocked off so I didn't could be myself, to building up another one that it not really working, and then understanding myself as autistic and looking back through my my life, looking back and seeing okay, that's why

Leah Cottham (11:59.732)
Yeah, absolutely.

Mark (12:12.765)
I was like that, that's why I did that. that's why you know, all these kind of things. That took a while. And then I got to thinking about what I could do with it. Because I I'm an open book. I mean everyone I know knows I'm autistic because it's the first thing I say in a call to make sure people are aware. It's the thing that has set people at ease because they can reveal their own neurodiversities as well in an interview because they know it's a safe space and like

Leah Cottham (12:14.612)
No.

Leah Cottham (12:39.626)
Yeah.

Mark (12:41.4)
I find that so powerful. And in the industry of recruitment or HR and that kind of space, it's really where you can make a massive amount of difference for equality and equity. So the first interaction a person has with a business if they want to join it is the application. How is the application written? Is it written

in a way that is inclusive so things can't be misread. I I I won't deny I'm an intelligent person. I understand a lot of stuff because I research a lot of stuff and I love it. But my wife might say something to me and I'll completely misunderstand what it is because I just don't necessarily understand the cue or I've seen read it as something else and I've read too much into it. So it's making sure that these are inclusive it's the same with making job adverts gender inclusive because again there is wording that can

put off people with different genders. It's all these kind of things. Inclusivity isn't just about neurodiversity, it's about the whole gambit of diversity. But that's the first interaction someone has and that's written by a recruiter or a hiring manager. So a recruiter has that first interaction with somebody. So say they they apply you have to read the application. You assess the CV. You then are the first person to speak to that person.

Leah Cottham (13:39.37)
Genov.

Mark (14:06.903)
If you are biased and you are seeing thinking, well, they said they don't want to put their camera on, they must be cheating, it must be fraud, it must be AI, it must be whatever. If they are sitting there looking around, look not looking like they're paying attention, I do it half the time. In my in my last office office, it was the bay window of my bedroom, I I would stand half the time looking down the road while I'm talking to people. It's not me it doesn't mean I'm not paying attention, it just means that I'm focusing

Through different means. And it's all of these kind of pieces that all hit a recruiter or an HR person first. Then they enter the interview process, which is discussed with a higher manager or a business and a recruiter. They build that process. Is that process inclusive for everybody? Have they put it in a place that is in the middle of the office so it's really loud, so somebody can't concentrate?

Leah Cottham (15:02.218)
Yeah.

Mark (15:03.596)
Have they put it somewhere where there's no lifts as somebody that's in a wheelchair or has disabilities for walking? I I've got psyratic arthritis, my legs don't always work. So I I need somewhere where I can get easily accessible. I it's all of these kind of things are all thought of through that recruitment and HR space. So I realise how powerful that was. How powerful being in the industry that I am is. I've got twenty one, twenty two thousand connections, I'm limited.

Leah Cottham (15:32.512)
Yeah.

Mark (15:33.119)
I I'm a recruiter, I've spoken to lots of people, I've connected with lots of people, it's a it's organic growth. And I realised that in my position I have a massive audience and I have a massive knowledge of areas that really impact a person. And so I thought right, let's let's do something with that. And I I first started off a couple of posts and the first one was on National Autism Day a few years ago.

Leah Cottham (15:50.974)
Yeah.

Mark (16:02.028)
when I did a massive coming out as autistic speech, as it were. and it felt so empowering. And the comments I was getting and the messages I was getting, I didn't get a single negative on that. Which I thought was marvellous. I was so it was such a good feeling. And I thought, right, what now? And I I met a I had a lovely lady called Amy

Leah Cottham (16:17.802)
Yeah, that's so great.

Mark (16:31.705)
and we'll come come back to me. she she does the the bold organisation and she supports a lot of people there's a lot of it is female led and but she used to be really powerful in content creation and building a personal brand and she did a session with me when I was at Talent Fool on personal branding. And that really hit me off with I know what to do. I'm gonna write a post. I'm gonna write another one and I

stumbled upon a particular area and the processes and I started writing small things equal large neurodiverse impact. So something that I started off with with a different logo and everything just to to build these posts. And the interactions were great. Some of them a lot more than others and it kind of got me to the place where I realised what needs to be talked about and what I can help people with. And then it grew from there. I I

changed my logo I came out with came up with a a little a a name for a group which is index which is the inclusivity and neurodiversity exchange which it's not massively successful I'm not publicising it's a private group on LinkedIn so no one can search it because it's a lot of people do not want their diversities known. There's a I've got a WhatsApp group, I've got a Slack group. I it's there.

Leah Cottham (17:52.862)
Yeah.

Mark (17:58.653)
If people need it, it's there. I'm not building it as a a money making thing. I'm not building it as anything. I'm just building it to to exchange ideas to help people. So then I started putting that logo on my posts. Admittedly, when I was left talent for and I was out of work for a little bit, it hit me. So there's not been as many posts for last year. But it's still there. It's still something that I I do sort of passively to try and help people. And now in my new position where I'm

Leah Cottham (18:00.137)
Yeah.

Mark (18:27.399)
in enablement and change, I can really start to look at those kind of pieces for not only just further within nature, but from within our clients and how we can assist them to to grow that inclusivity piece.

Leah Cottham (18:38.376)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's such a beautiful way. It all started with your son, but then it made you really understand who you are and to be able to find that moment that really clicked in your mind and

Mark (18:49.342)
Hmm. Well I I want him to be able to come into work when he's older and it to be inclusive. I he's ten at the moment. This time. If I can use these next ten years to slowly chip away and it's a it's a big thing and it's it is a chipping away thing. If I can make just one small difference that is helping him when he joins the workforce, then excellent. I I can die happy.

Leah Cottham (18:56.458)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (19:06.186)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (19:15.626)
Yeah.

I would say yeah, seriously though. It's like your like way of life is really just making you more happy in what you do in your career, making but then also now you're making room to make a difference for other people as well, helping them to understand when maybe is best to say about their neurodiversity, when if they don't want to say about it, how to really

kind of put that out there in different ways and you're showing how easy it can be. So I think it's it's such a nice thing to be able to do for those people that really want inspiration. And it's nice that when you did do that post you to get all of those comments and stuff. It's it's so it just shows that the world is welcoming, but I think because of this neurodiversity part of it that it's trying to make it

You're trying to make it all inclusive. Sometimes it feels not so inclusive because of that kind of segregation, but because you're kind of pushing through that, it shows that it's not like that at all. And it's really showing that you can make a difference to those other people that are really trying to find their own path as well. And I think that it's really beautiful and it shows how this autistic recruiter has really played a an amazing part in your life and also.

other people's as well. So yeah, that's really nice and it it's definitely making a difference. If I found you and recognised you then we're definitely getting somewhere aren't we? So yeah exactly. So I know you you you've really talked openly about that and it's really helped you, your career, your son and other people in the networking space. But

Mark (20:50.714)
Getting somewhere.

Leah Cottham (21:02.634)
How has that specifically do you think helped build the the hiring process and maybe coach your teams? Is there anything that you've really learned to implement? I know you mentioned certain things like surroundings and what that looks like, but is there anything that you've really seen make a big difference in that process or how you coach your recruitment team specifically?

Mark (21:25.826)
One thing that's I I found really important is understanding the importance of diversity within teams. So I I always have diversity gravitates towards me, which is great. I mean it's probably because of the the the openness of it. And diversity of of thoughts, of culture, of of everything really shapes an interesting team.

Leah Cottham (21:34.24)
Mm-hmm.

Mark (21:52.855)
It shapes a team with different ideas, it shapes a team with different ways of looking at processes. And that in itself is a massive strength. There are there's statistics out there which I can't recall off the top of my head around how having a neurodiverse team pop a statistical it is of how how much more a neurodiverse team

Leah Cottham (22:08.468)
From the power to say called

Mark (22:19.831)
Like the incre how much it increases outputs and how much it increases speed of ideas and things. It it's it's incredible how it can help. So what I've learnt is to harness people, harness their differences. Because I there's a there's a real negative in my mind about calling neurodiversity a disability. So it yes, in some instances it is disabling and I honestly believe that I am

Leah Cottham (22:23.102)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (22:41.916)
Mm. Yeah.

Mark (22:49.068)
very lucky that myself, my son, we aren't in that part of the spectrum that that is causing that that that kind that kind of struggle.

But in a team I think it's better to look at it as a diff ability rather than a disability. It's a different ability. People have different strengths and that's whether they're neurodiverse, whether they're neurom standard, neuro neurotypical like normal either, I hate word. it it's taking everybody and everybody's different abilities and things and everybody's strengths, focusing on those, harnessing the ability to

Leah Cottham (23:08.366)
Mark (23:30.303)
assist other team members with their weaknesses. It's getting a team to work together as a team. One person is great, one person is strong. Two people with different minds, with different thought processes, different abilities is even stronger because they can see things from different angles and build something different. They can build better hiring processes. They can make a whole process more inclusive. It's not about making

Leah Cottham (23:56.01)
Hmm.

Mark (23:58.753)
processes purely inclusive for neurodiverse people. It's not about that. It's making processes inclusive for all. Because just because you're not neurodiverse doesn't mean that you might not struggle with a lot of sound, a lot of light, a lot of you know it's making sure that there is a nice balance for all and giving everyone the option of of a reasonable adjustment.

Leah Cottham (24:04.214)
Mm.

Leah Cottham (24:25.064)
Yeah.

Mark (24:28.832)
So how do I coach my team? I I coach them to listen to each other, to talk to each other. I I listen to them. I show the the importance of listening, of understanding, and then coaching people in the ways that they need. Like I'm not calling myself a great manager, but a a a good manager is somebody that listens to their team, that understands their team, can see their differences, understands the differences, and knows that Route A

Leah Cottham (24:49.916)
Yeah. No, so there's

Mark (24:58.793)
might work for person one but not for person two and three. Route two might work for person two and one but not three. It's understanding who works which way. I I prefer to empower my team to be able to answer their own questions to get to the answer themselves. But I I know some people maybe in some states might not understand that or might not be able to get to that because they're overwhelmed. So it's understanding all of these kind of pieces. Now building hiring processes it is looking at the whole process.

It's looking at interview stages. Right, why do we need five? What is the timeline for giving feedback? I am awful with feedback for myself. If I've done an interview or if I've sent someone something to review, I get really antsy. I'm like, I is it all right? Have I done all right? Does it look good? And if that feedback doesn't come for a couple of days, I will spend that next couple of days with a drop in productivity because

I've got that in the back of my mind constantly. It will affect my sleep. So understanding those things beforehand, like this is when the feedback will come. Okay, so I'm not thinking right, okay, it's been two days, it's not a feedback, is it really that bad? It's okay, they are will fill feedback in two days, this is when it's gonna be, or booking a call for feedback afterwards. So important. yes. Yeah.

Leah Cottham (26:17.734)
Yeah, the expectations setting them in the beginning so that you have some form of yeah, absolutely. I get that.

Mark (26:26.761)
with the team is not putting a call in at seven seven AM at nine AM for them the night before and not saying why. I mean I wouldn't sleep. it's horrible.

Leah Cottham (26:34.432)
I can't think of I can't think of any that that is actually one of the worst things ever. You're I can't I can't I can barely sleep. I've I'm having dreams that I miss my alarm. I'm having dreams that I'm on the call. Like my whole night of dreams is about that moment. And then Yeah. It is and that absolutely sets it back to

Mark (26:40.936)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mark (26:51.997)
Yeah. It's awful, isn't it?

Leah Cottham (26:59.944)
Firstly, what you said about the listening part, really making sure I think that's such a key thing for somebody who is a manager listening and it makes a big difference when say week on week check-ins, if they come back and ask about the thing that you mentioned the week before and check in about that, it really does make a big difference on you being like, yeah, I did start that actually, but I didn't get quite far on it. Let me go back to that and just the check in moments and relating it back to the previous week by

listening and if you think I really got stuck on that moment then by you lift the manager listening saying about the different pathways or actually maybe try go down this path then because this doesn't seem to be working too well and I think you've really hit the nail on the head there because by listening and finding out those different ways of working it really helps people be more successful in themselves and understand themselves and I know it's it's nice to get little hints about how to do certain things but I do think solving the problem on your own is the best way to get there. But

by finding and listening to different ways of working helps to get there. So I really like that and all that.

Mark (28:02.707)
using AI, you use it as a tool, you don't use it as your replacement. You you've got you you you have to still keep your mind fresh and keep these things. But all all of these things have really built that and influence that how I manage people and how I have managed or I've led people. Like you can't make assumptions and I I I don't believe treating everyone fairly means treating everyone identically. That's a real key piece because nobody is identical.

Leah Cottham (28:06.89)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (28:11.772)
Yeah.

Mark (28:31.65)
Even identical twins of differences. My dad's a twin, an identical twin. Him and his brother have a lot of differences. They might look the same, but a lot of differences. So you you have to treat people. Which is the picture of there's a there's a fish, there's an elephant, there's a bird, a monkey, and it's you all have a standard test to climb that tree. I loved it. I did a post about it last year or year before, and it it's such a

Leah Cottham (28:51.786)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mark (29:00.55)
prominent thing that always sticks in my mind whenever I'm leading a team because nobody is the same.

Leah Cottham (29:06.036)
Yeah. Exactly. And that's just it's such an obvious way of looking at it, but it makes it so obvious of how it much it can happen. So

Mark (29:12.357)
Mm.

Mark (29:17.018)
I mean don't me wrong, I love standardization because you you need standardization for things to work, but you you have a baseline and then you have like the allowances and the adaptation for each person of how that standardization works for them and how to get them from where they are to the standardisation, for example.

Leah Cottham (29:20.672)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (29:25.02)
Adaptation. Yeah.

Leah Cottham (29:32.766)
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And I think that's a really good way of working. And do you think there's anything that teams are getting wrong about neurodiversity? Like even I know like absolutely most recruiters set out with really good intentions behind them. Sometimes that can be there can be a lot of pressure. I I do absolutely get that. But is there anything that people are really getting wrong about this or they're not kind of looking at it in the right way? Any

any kind of tips that you've seen happen and how you've really changed that.

Mark (30:04.005)
Again, it's a lot down to assumptions. Assumptions are one of the biggest issues because people even with the best intentions will go right so for an autistic people we need to make these adjustments. For an ADHD person we need to make these adjustments for, a dyslexic person we need to make these adjustments for, a wheelchair bound person we need to make these adjustments like it you can't make assumptions of people, especially when you look at neurodiversity, because it is a spectrum.

Leah Cottham (30:06.334)
Hmm. Yeah.

Mark (30:33.228)
it it's not a straight line, you're not not autistic and autistic. Like you it's a cynical that you some people struggle in this and not in this, some people this and this. Like it everyone differs. Everybody differs. So it is giving the individual the option. Some people will not want to reveal it. Absolutely fine. Some people will not need or feel fine without having any reasonable adjustments. Some people might like a lot of them.

A lot of people don't know what reason or Justin say can have. And that that's one of the massive pieces. They they don't understand. And I think that's where that that assumption piece comes in. You you can't assume everyone's gonna need the same thing. But it's not just about neurodivergence, it's it's people that are neuro other never know what to call it. No, I don't want to say neurotypical. but anyone that's not

That's not neurodivergent will also potentially need reasonable adjustments. It's making the assumption that it's only neurodiverse people, only disabled people, or difficled people that need adjustments. It's having that open for all. Because immediately, if you're only saying, for example, I I I applied for 163 jobs last year before I joined Matcha. And the amount of them that said, are you disabled? Well, if I was just autistic, then

And from that part of my brain, I'm thinking, well, no, I forget that my legs don't always work. but if I'm thinking from that perspective, I'm like, well, I I I don't consider my disabled, I I consider myself diverse, and it's it's having that differentiation, differentiation even, of the wording, and then there is the stigma. If I put the I mean, how many people who are actually neurodiverse actually reply to that and say yes? Because how many

Leah Cottham (32:01.865)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (32:07.518)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (32:26.336)
It'd be good to find that out statistically as well.

Mark (32:28.617)
Yeah. Yeah. But even those statistics are never gonna be accurate because by filling in that statistic they are also revealing that and it's that it's personal to everybody. Some people are happy for it to be out there everywhere. Some people don't, a lot of people don't because of stigma. So by having these things on an application, we are then already setting in the recruiter's mind or setting in whoever's reviewing that's mind. this person's it.

Because there will there will always be that stigma, there'll always be that assumption. And that's dangerous. Because that will cause issues, that will cause court cases if it gets too bad. And you're identifying. Yeah, and you're you're having people put their hand up and say, yeah, I'm I'm different. I you don't you don't want to say that. I in in the you you don't and

Leah Cottham (33:11.792)
Absolutely, if there hasn't been already.

Mark (33:26.24)
So it doesn't make it inclusive from the first place. If you are filling out an application, my name is Mark, I've got this job, I'm looking for this job, I'm autistic. But you're immediately tying it all together. If you have reasonable adjustments for everybody, then you're not necessarily having that identification. You might have we have our interviews in this office with its volume.

There are this many people in it, we do this structure. Or we can do this one, this one, this having different options, for example, that that showing thoughts some people just go, I'm nervous for interviewing and because I'm autistic, I'm nervous having loads of people there feels like everyone's looking at me. Why not make it all inclusive for everybody? Give everybody the choice.

Leah Cottham (34:12.608)
That's so fair. Yeah. Yeah. I think yeah, I think that's a really nice option. And even in remote hiring, maybe just give away that however that looks, and you can opt in to different things, but it doesn't mean that you are a specific or neurodiversity or labeled as disabled. It's just you opting in to get

Mark (34:35.528)
Yeah. Yeah.

Leah Cottham (34:40.062)
the best environment for you to do the interview process itself. And it's it yeah.

Mark (34:43.63)
Yeah. And the other thing with stigma in interviews, yeah, with with remote hiring is we are always taught from birth, whether it's taught taught or whether it's just from surroundings, right? If you go to an interview or you have a meeting, you you walk in tall, you shake that person's hand, you dress smartly with a from a man with a tie up, like strangling yourself. You you

Leah Cottham (35:03.86)
Mm.

Mark (35:12.057)
I I haven't worn a suit for a well, by my nan's funeral, I haven't worn a suit for a couple of years. I don't like It makes me feel like I'm strangling myself. I like you so you do that. You have to sit up straight. You don't cross your arms, you look at the person, you I that is so uncomfortable. I I I don't look. I tell you one thing that I always find funny with the the look at people. So someone says, look, look look at me or look at the person. Which eye do you look at?

Leah Cottham (35:29.608)
Hmm.

Mark (35:41.756)
That's what goes through my head. Right, I'm looking I've got two eyes, they've got two eyes, but I can't focus on both unless I make myself cross side or boss eye. do I look at that do I look at their nose? Do I look at them? I lit read most of the time because I find it's the easiest thing. Exactly. Exactly. And it and it causes so many more issues by trying to work out how to look at somebody in the eye than it does to be looking elsewhere.

Leah Cottham (35:52.4)
then you're not even listening to anything that they're saying at this point.

Leah Cottham (36:07.188)
Yeah.

Mark (36:08.406)
I can multitask, I do so many different things at once. I've got a massive screen that has two or three windows at a time, plus my computer, and I will be doing stuff at the same time because that's how my brain works. I I counted last night when I was on the call to one of my team how many tabs I have open across three different windows. 123.

Leah Cottham (36:24.306)
god, what has it?

No.

Mark (36:31.215)
And that's like my brain. I there's a hundred and t there's a famous joke, there's that my brain's like the computer that there's a hundred odd tabs open and something's playing music and I don't know where it's coming from, or is it I'm paraphrasing, but that that's that's what my brain is like because that there is a lot going on at once. It's honing that. And that's what I've worked out how to do with myself, to hone it, that I can do lots of different things at once.

Leah Cottham (36:42.345)
Yes.

Leah Cottham (36:50.325)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (36:57.726)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mark (36:59.418)
Scheduling time for things as well.

Leah Cottham (37:01.728)
Absolutely. I think that's a we've fitted so much in that question, but I think we really we went round and really pinpointed the the moments in where processes and tick boxes just don't really make sense and different ways of getting around that. And I know you've mentioned reasonable adjustments a lot, so I really do want to speak about this now. But so what is your take on reasonable adjustments and

Mark (37:08.846)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (37:30.708)
How should this really be implemented inside the business?

Mark (37:35.588)
So I always stand firm that reasonable adjustments should be for everybody. They should be across the board. Everybody should have the option and have the chance to have a reasonable adjustment. Whether they are neurodiverse, whether they're disabled, whether they have no known neurodiversities or disabilities. They should everybody should have the chance to make it fair and equit equitable equitable across inclusive.

Leah Cottham (38:00.904)
Yeah.

Mark (38:05.465)
so for that instead. to make it fair and inclusive across a whole business. Because then everyone has the chance. But with reasonable adjustments it's it's difficult. I remember how I first got into reasonable adjustments and it's actually how I I think it's the content of my first or one of my first posts as well. I was working inside the the last RPO and somebody from a different that was supporting a different client came to me and said my client

And this was a global company. I'm not saying the name of it, but it was a global company, and they said, My client has been requested what reasonable adjustments they can provide by one of our candidates. But we have no policy, we have no understanding, we've got not got a list, we have no idea what to go back with. What reasonable adjustments can they have? And I ended up spending an hour writing out a massive long list of things that could.

be considered a reasonable adjustment because it is unending. Like it it could be anything. It's like there is so many different reasonable adjustments you can have. It can be location, it could be environment, it could be whether it's remote or not, it could be outside, it could be

Leah Cottham (39:07.976)
I was about to say endless. Yeah.

Mark (39:28.296)
the amount of time between interviews. It could be having the interview questions in advance. It could like there is so much that it can be that it is an endless list. And it's not necessarily the just that businesses don't know what to provide. People don't know what to ask for. And that's that's a an issue. There there's article as well that I was working on well, I was working on sorry, I wasn't working with her. I was I was assisting her with something that she was building call

Leah Cottham (39:35.434)
Mm-hmm.

Mark (39:57.629)
Cisco that's the wrong name, but but she was creating something, Isabel Brooks, she was creating something that could provide and business could use to provide things like reasonable adjustments to make sure things are equal and inclusive. And these things that these kind of things are needed for the time being. Like for the time being, we need companies that can help other organisations with reasonable adjustments.

Leah Cottham (40:12.096)
Mark (40:26.42)
Because people don't know. And then one day we'll get into a place where every comp every company will just know. They'll have it internally, they'll have it, they can offer it to everybody. And it's not even having on an a application do you need a reasonable adjustment? Yes, no, and then a box. It's maybe having on an application. These are reasonable adjustments that we can provide. Tick ones that would that would be suitable for you.

Leah Cottham (40:45.257)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (40:54.844)
Yeah, or even just something as nice as create your perfect environment and it's just like, Yeah, I

Mark (40:59.444)
Yeah. What would your perfect interview environment be? And you can type free text and then no doubt it's linked to AI, they can pick it up and say you need to provide this candidate with A B C D for their interview.

Leah Cottham (41:04.606)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (41:11.102)
Yeah, love that. Absolutely.

Mark (41:14.102)
Such a an easy potential thing to put in there. And

Leah Cottham (41:17.042)
And it makes people think, okay, now I have designed my perfect process, it can calm their nerves, it can make them go into that process with like a lot more confidence, knowing that it's really shaped around exactly how they can perform at their best as well.

Mark (41:22.454)
Yeah.

Mark (41:30.11)
Yeah.

And you know what, that's almost a signal to a company as well of who that person is. Not necessarily, this person must be autistic so they've asked for this. It's this person has these ideas. This is a really interesting idea that we can be built into our culture. It's signalling somebody's thought process on what good looks like to them. How many times in an interview you'd be asked, what does good look like to you? It is a simple way of asking that, so it becomes almost part of the interview process.

Leah Cottham (41:37.407)
Man.

Leah Cottham (41:40.874)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (41:53.417)
Yeah.

Mark (42:02.248)
But also it's helping the candidate and then helping the company with any other reasonable adjustments that they've not thought about. It's a lovely way of doing it.

Leah Cottham (42:09.758)
Yeah, exactly. And it even if people are asking for say a week in between interviews, it might just be because they're going into the office isn't a bit it's a bit obvious if they've then got two days off back to back and things like that, it's it's a bit

Mark (42:19.283)
Yes.

Yes, there is that as well. I when I interviewed for for Matcha, it was it was excellent. I mean they they were fantastic. They gave me reasonable adjustments before I even asked for them. like it it was it was great. So they knew that they knew I was autistic, they knew I struggled with walking at times. One of them flew in from Amsterdam and they were they were saying, Shall we come and meet you in South End to make it easier for you for you? And

I said I I mean I was very thankful for them. I said no, I I wanted to come up to London and and do that and get somebody else to meet as well. But the fact that they were willing to not only wanted them to fly over, but then to come over to South Venice as well. That told me everything I needed to know about Matcha as an inclusive employer. I it's absolutely fantastic. And then I had a manager called Luke who honestly the most supportive person I've ever met, he understood diversity in general. He used to have a diversity company. I mean he he

Leah Cottham (42:57.704)
as little fitness.

Leah Cottham (43:05.571)
yeah.

Mark (43:18.607)
helped me and managed me how I needed to be managed and he supported me into my new role because he could see where my strengths were and what I enjoyed doing and where there was a gap and match that was required. It's having those kind of people environment and having those systems in place and having that mindset that brings adjustments for anybody if they need them. Awesome.

Leah Cottham (43:40.288)
Yeah, and I I think that goes perfectly into my last question. And I think you basically have just answered it, but in a roundabout way, is there any advice that you would give TA people leaders and recruiters that are wanting to build neurodiversity awareness into the global hiring function?

Mark (44:00.081)
So I'd say I'd probably start off by saying don't build something because you have to build something and have it sitting on a slide deck somewhere. It's like having a dusty file in an old office that you have to brush the dust off before you start. It's making it embedded within everything you do. It's understanding how much strength diversity can bring, so then fostering that. It's listening to people.

Leah Cottham (44:20.841)
Yeah.

Mark (44:29.814)
It's talking to your employers, it's talking to your candidates, talking to your recruiters, your hiring managers, find out where friction sits for them rather than sitting in a leadership meeting and making an assumption of what people are going to be guessing. It's actually looking at the proper hiring journey. It's going from the the advert all the way through to the recruiter conversation, through the assessment, the interview, the offer, the onboarding, and then the continued journeying.

journey onward onwards, it's asking that simple question at every stage of does this need to work this way? Does this fit for everybody? Where can we make potential adjustments? And it's globally not assuming one way of working, one assumption, one solution will work everywhere. It's understanding with different cultures, legislations, attitudes towards disclosure. It's

it's thinking about individuals, their attitudes to disclosure. It's understanding that it's hard for people. People don't want to necessarily say there's struggles, but they might talk about things that could be improvements. Doing anonym anonymous surveys within your company to understand. Giving your recruiters and your consultants the the tools to have confident conversations with individuals and

It's letting individuals know that there's no stigma. We are asking these to help you and to help improve the business. We want the best people, whether they have three heads and two arms, or whether they're hobbling along on stick legs. weird examples. It's not necessarily how they look, it's not how their struggles they have, it's

Leah Cottham (46:17.044)
Thank you.

Leah Cottham (46:22.1)
Yeah.

Mark (46:25.217)
the thoughts and ideas and how they show up to work and how how amazing their brains can be, whether they're neurodiverse, neurotypical, or anything in between, anywhere on the spectrum. So the the goal really should be to to build build a workplace and a hiring process capable of recognising talent when it presents itself, even if it's differently from what you would expect.

Leah Cottham (46:38.131)
Yeah.

Leah Cottham (46:51.464)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's such a perfect finishing statement to what we've spoken about, Mark. We've gone through what it was like working at those big giants and through the countries in different time zones, talking openly as the autistic recruiter, what that looked like as your journey of yourself, your son and now in your career. And then that

process in neuro inclusive, what that looks like, what teams are getting wrong, how people can get started, how can people can be so open about it and not just make it a kind of tick box where people do feel afraid to tick that box and what's fallen apart and how to make that better. So thank you so much, Mark. I can't believe it's been forty five minutes of such an amazing, interesting conversation. I think we could speak probably all day about this between us.

Mark (47:30.965)
Yeah.

Mark (47:38.985)
I think a week, I think.

Leah Cottham (47:41.44)
But yeah, thank you so much for joining me on the Freeder of Wear podcast. It's been amazing to find out more about this side of recruitment and really interesting to to be part of this. So thank you so much, Mark.

Mark (47:55.437)
It's always been an absolute pleasure. Okay.

Leah Cottham (47:57.225)
Great, so thank you. Bye.

Mark (47:59.373)
Okay.